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Author Topic: Will the US cotton on?  (Read 682 times)
Scooter
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« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2010, 09:16:10 PM »

And yet another litany of assertions backed up with zero evidence.
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Andrew D
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« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2010, 12:28:35 AM »

Are you denying that a job provided by an American company to an Indian employee is a job that is not being provided by that American company to an American employee?  Of course not.

Are you denying that a product made by someone in China and purchased by an American is a product not made by someone in America and purchased by an American?  Of course not.

Those things are fine with you.  They are not fine with me.  The issue is what American policy ought to be.  You want American policy to be good for that mostly insignificant blip you live in.  I want American policy to be good for Americans.  I get to vote in America.  You don't.

But thanks for pretending to play.
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rubato
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« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2010, 08:51:24 AM »



Really not getting it are you?    By moving shoe production to China Nike creates more higher-paying jobs for Americans than they could if they made them here.    These are jobs that are less physically damaging and mentally deadening than shoe assembly.   They also raise the std of living by providing goods which cost less.    $50 which is not spent on shoes is avail. to use for some other purpose.

The way to reduce the use of illegal aliens in agriculture or the service industry is to raise minimum wages and increase enforcement of tax laws (withholding for SS &c) and labor laws until the incentive to hire them goes away.

yrs,
rubato

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Scooter
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« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2010, 10:24:46 AM »

Are you denying that a job provided by an American company to an Indian employee is a job that is not being provided by that American company to an American employee?  Of course not.

Are you denying that a product made by someone in China and purchased by an American is a product not made by someone in America and purchased by an American?  Of course not.
I am saying that there are a lot of well paying jobs (in design, advertising, distribution, sales, etc.) in the U.S. that are dependent on keeping production costs low.

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You want American policy to be good for that mostly insignificant blip you live in.
OMG, you caught me.  I want U.S. companies to produce stuff in China and sell it in the U.S. because it is good for Canada.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

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I want American policy to be good for Americans.  I get to vote in America.  You don't.
Vote for whatever you want.  Find a party that believes in autarky and vote for.  Hell, create one if it doesn't exist.  But the economic laws that caused nations to seek out international trade from the outset are not going to disappear.
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Ytrebil
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« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2010, 12:25:19 PM »

And yet another litany of assertions backed up with zero evidence.

Scooter says don't worry; don't try to do anything; everything is just fine:

Social Security to start cashing Uncle Sam's IOUs
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Scooter
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« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2010, 01:27:35 PM »

Ytrebil demonstrates that his associate's diploma from the University of East Butt Crack would be more useful as toilet paper, since he apparently lacks the ability to read plainly written English sentences.

And he certainly is incapable (again) of providing any evidence to back up his assertions.  As if anyone would be surprised, given his posting history.
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Andrew D
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« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2010, 01:53:12 PM »

Really not getting it are you?    By moving shoe production to China Nike creates more higher-paying jobs for Americans than they could if they made them here.

If that were true, unemployment would not be rising.  And of course there are jobs that are mindlessly boring.  There will be for the foreseeable future, because for the foreseeable future, fruit will need picking, and dishes will need washing, and ditches will need digging, and lumber will need hauling ....

But even low-end, tedious jobs are still jobs.  And they beat all hell out of having no money.  (I know; I've had such jobs.)

By moving shoe production to China, Nike is not, on the net, creating more jobs for Americans.  By moving shoe production to China, Nike creates jobs for people in China and wealth for people who own Nike.

Do you really think that transferring vast numbers of jobs to Mexico has created more jobs for Americans in America?  That's utter hogwash.  Transferring vast numbers of jobs to Mexico and India and China and all over the fucking place has been an important factor in creating more bread lines in America -- food-supplying charities are often running out of food before they run out of people who need it -- not more jobs.

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The way to reduce the use of illegal aliens in agriculture or the service industry is to raise minimum wages and increase enforcement of tax laws (withholding for SS &c) and labor laws until the incentive to hire them goes away.

Well, raising the minimum wage is not going to do much good if employers are already not paying the minimum wage we already have.  Nor do illegal aliens have any particularly strong incentive to see that minimum-wage laws are enforced.  Sure, their wages would go up.  Oh, wait; they wouldn't have the jobs at all, because if the jobs paid decent wages, Americans would take them.

Are you denying that a job provided by an American company to an Indian employee is a job that is not being provided by that American company to an American employee?  Of course not.

Are you denying that a product made by someone in China and purchased by an American is a product not made by someone in America and purchased by an American?  Of course not.
I am saying that there are a lot of well paying jobs (in design, advertising, distribution, sales, etc.) in the U.S. that are dependent on keeping production costs low.

And I'm not buying it (ha ha).  Why did Henry Ford pay his workers more than he had to -- that is, higher wages than the labor market required?  Because he quite sensibly realized that his company would be better off if his workers could actually afford to buy his products.  Now we import zillions of tons of Chinese-made crap which (besides killing our children) gets sold at WalMart super-cheap.  The result?  Even many of WalMart's own employees can't afford to buy the stuff.

What matter are not nominal price increases.  What matters is the ratio of prices to wages.  If my grocery, etc., bills go up by fifty percent while my wages double, I'm better off than I was before.  And I can afford to buy more things.  And that's what pays the wages of those who make those things.

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But the economic laws that caused nations to seek out international trade from the outset are not going to disappear.

True.  Things that do not exist are unlikely to disappear.  The economic "laws" that govern US trade policy are those set up by the rich so that they gan get even richer at the expense of ordinary people.

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rubato
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« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2010, 02:21:36 PM »

Really not getting it are you?    By moving shoe production to China Nike creates more higher-paying jobs for Americans than they could if they made them here.

If that were true, unemployment would not be rising.   ... "


Unemployment due to trade policy changes at a gradual rate as the effects of that policy are seen.    Baseline unemployment in yr 2000 was 4% which is a very low level by historic standards and this is after decades of outsourcing &c.

Unemployment due to wholly different factors is highly volatile and changes rapidly, like the spikes in unemployment due to the recent catastrophic collapse and the recession of 2001.

In other words you don't have a clue as to the major factors driving unemployment.   The current 10% + unemployment is largely due to a combination of the stupid economic policies of BushCo and the global financial crisis which was driven by ineffective regulation of financial markets and a flood of cheap capital flowing to the economic center, the US and Europe, from the rest of the world.

You are a blank slate when it comes to economics.   You know absolutely nothing.

yrs,
rubato

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Andrew D
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« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2010, 02:58:52 PM »

And still more than you are capable of learning.  Go figure.
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oldr_n_wsr
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« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2010, 12:05:20 PM »

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By moving shoe production to China Nike creates more higher-paying jobs for Americans than they could if they made them here.
Not everyone is suited to shoe/mechanical/electrical/ whatever design. Not everyone fits into those higher paying jobs for Americans. Many fit in the manufacturing sector where in times past, they made a good middle-class wage with benefits. Many of those jobs are now gone and those that would have had those jobs are stuck permanently un/under employed and are not able to make ends meet anymore.

While there is an upside to having things made offshore, (cheaper prices, cheaper costs overall, more money available to spend on other things) it does have it's drawbacks.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 12:05:55 PM by oldr_n_wsr » Logged
Scooter
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« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2010, 12:17:28 PM »

Let's be real though, oldr, jobs stitching shoes and sewing garments are not and never have been "middle class" jobs, they are and always have been subsistence jobs, which is why, when such jobs did exist in large numbers on shore, they were filled primarily by women and children working to supplement their families' meagre incomes, and not by able bodied men who had four or five mouths to feed.

There is a reason why China is using tax policy to discourage growth in those sorts of jobs, it might behoove us to think about why.
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oldr_n_wsr
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« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2010, 12:38:08 PM »

For shoes/clothing I would think now-a-days those jobs would primarily be done with machines which is probably the direction China wants to head.Here in the states there's not even jobs for hte operator of the sneaker making machine, nor for his supervisor/manager/director/payroll person/acounting dept, human resources. Whole divisions get lost, not just the factory and it's factory floor workers.
How many towns and their economies here in the US have gotten destroyed when a division of "pick your big company" up and moved production off shore?

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Andrew D
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« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2010, 04:12:50 PM »

Let's be real though, oldr, jobs stitching shoes and sewing garments are not and never have been "middle class" jobs, they are and always have been subsistence jobs, which is why, when such jobs did exist in large numbers on shore, they were filled primarily by women and children working to supplement their families' meagre incomes, and not by able bodied men who had four or five mouths to feed.

And which is why, now that the regular labor market will not tolerate such wages, companies avoid paying decent wages by hiring illegal aliens and/or shipping jobs overseas.  Which is exactly what we should stop.

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There is a reason why China is using tax policy to discourage growth in those sorts of jobs ....

And they're obviously doing a bang-up job of it ....
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editec
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« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2010, 05:42:45 AM »



Really not getting it are you?    By moving shoe production to China Nike creates more higher-paying jobs for Americans than they could if they made them here.
It does?

How does that work? 




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  These are jobs that are less physically damaging and mentally deadening than shoe assembly.   

What jobs would those be?



They also raise the std of living by providing goods which cost less.    $50 which is not spent on shoes is avail. to use for some other purpose.

The way to reduce the use of illegal aliens in agriculture or the service industry is to raise minimum wages and increase enforcement of tax laws (withholding for SS &c) and labor laws until the incentive to hire them goes away.

yrs,
rubato


[/quote]Ruby you're a damned fool

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..and on the third day he rose again.
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